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Thread: A handgun isn't enough

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    A handgun isn't enough

    Since TDG asked to keep this thread on track, I am starting this topic here where he requested.

    Contrary to what you may think, based on the post he made about starting this discussion elsewhere, this isn't really a topic about gun rights.

    Gun rights aren't enough. Just having a firearm wouldn't have saved those women in Philly. Gear is just one piece of the puzzle.

    I can't tell you how many people I've met over the years that owned firearms and knew next to fuckall about them.

    I've shown people at the range how to properly load their M16 or AK mags, since they were trying to load them like a pistol mag (which anyone who's spent much time with them knows you don't have to do).

    People that didn't know how to field strip their firearm so that they could clean and lube it. Firearms are machines, and like any machine, they WILL NOT work without maintenance.

    People that barely knew which end of that $1900 Bushmaster AR was the business end. Who didn't know how to use the forward assist if they needed to, who had to LOOK in order to be able to operate the safety or change a magazine, who rode the charging handle forward when putting a round in the chamber and then wondered why the rifle wouldn't fire.

    I can have a loaded rifle and pistol in the sleeping bag with me and not think twice about it. When I still had my own house, I had loaded firearms in every room (some in kitchen drawers or cabinets, some in the bathroom, some just laying on the coffee table, others concealed where they'd be out of sight but I'd be able to get to them quickly and easily). Now I have loaded and unloaded firearms, loaded and unloaded magazines, loose ammo, and loose brass just kind of EVERYWHERE in my area of the house.

    I KNOW my firearms. I know how to operate them, I can load them in the dark just by feel, the ones I use the most I can disassemble and reassemble blindfolded. I know, because I've tested myself before. I took an AR15, AK47, 1911, and Sig P220 (how I miss that pistol..) apart, put all the parts together in a box, set a timer, blindfolded myself, and then timed how long it took me to get them all back together correctly and function check each one. IIRC, it was about 3 minutes, in case you're curious.

    That level of knowledge and comfort wouldn't have saved those women.

    I've seen people with expensive rifles and pistols who couldn't make shots more complicated than a can at 25 feet (with a rifle) or a large paper target at 10 feet (with a pistol), using slow, aimed fire. People who just go out and pop off shots to make noise and make dirt fly. Or they shoot TV's, boxes, water heaters, whatever.

    Yes, sometimes I shoot rocks....from a few hundred meters away. Rocks typically about the size of an average man's chest. From 150-400 meters away. I also shoot silhouettes, mannequins, targets that I make myself that are the appropriate shape (human), I think you get the picture. I practice engaging multiple targets as quickly as possible, failure to stop drills (two to the chest, one to the head), FTS on multiple targets, 'tactical' (I fucking hate that word...) magazine changes, shooting from cover, MOVING from cover to cover, transitioning from an empty rifle to a loaded pistol and engaging targets, all kinds of fun shit.

    And those skills wouldn't have saved those women.

    Skills are only one more aspect of what I've seen referred to as "The Combat Triad". Equipment. Skills. And....

    Mindset.

    Two books that I absolutely CANNOT recommend enough are "On Combat" and "On Killing", both by Col. Dave Grossman. He goes into a LOT more detail than I'm going to here. Whether you're a combat vet struggling with your experiences, a crime victim, someone who lives in a high crime area, or are just interested in the psychology and what he has to say, these books are both EXCELLENT reads.

    Now, on with my post.

    The War Department (back in the day, when it was called the War Dept) did studies on American soldiers and Marines in an attempt to raise combat effectiveness. They found that somewhere around 10%, IIRC, actually fired their weapons in combat. Ten. Percent. Why didn't the rest? They had never had a person in their sights before. In training, they'd shot at bullseye targets. I don't care WHO you're fighting, there ain't a human enemy on this Earth that looks like a bullseye. Natural instinct to NOT KILL, combined with society's teachings about violence and killing, kept them from pulling the trigger and dropping the other guy.

    Now you're probably thinking that it's not a natural instinct to not kill, and besides, we've been doing it for thousands of years, we ought to be damn good at it, right? Well, this is covered too, but in a nutshell, most of the killing done in combat was done once one side became convinced that they'd lost, and they tried to retreat. The moment they turned their backs on the soon-to-be victors, they went from being 'another man dressed in armor and carrying a sword or spear', to being 'a target running away from me'. And THIS is when the majority of killing took place.

    In order to combat this, the US military switched to silhouette targets that are basically human shaped (if the person in question has their hands at their sides). The 'shoot rate' went to something like 25% around WWII/Korean War.

    Twenty-five percent. These aren't 12-year old homeschooled kids we're talking about, these are SOLDIERS and MARINES from all walks of life, from all over the country. Machinists, cab drivers, hunters and trappers, mechanics, farm boys, you name it. And only ONE in FOUR fired his weapon. Some of them even aimed it in the general direction of the enemy.

    Heraclitus:

    “Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
    Thanks to changes in training, long about Vietnam the shoot rate went to somewhere around 50-60%, IIRC. A lot of them were just firing into the jungle, but at least they WERE shooting.

    The military has come a long way since then, and now, the shoot rate is somewhere around 90-96%, IIRC.

    NINE out of TEN American soldiers and Marines will fire at the enemy. AT the enemy, not 'in their general direction'.

    It takes a lot of training to overcome the natural impulse and social conditioning to not kill. The military spends months training an infantryman. He does simulators, he does training with blanks, he does live fire. He trains in a lot of the same things I train in. He is drilled and trained repeatedly, so that if the time comes, he can kill without hesitation, because to hesitate may mean HE gets killed.

    And THAT is what this topic is about.

    Mindset.

    There are a lot of people that carry that I sincerely hope that whatever gods they believe in watch out for them, because even though they know how to use their firearm and they are proficient with it, they don't have the mindset for a firefight. They've never shot at anything that can bleed when it's hit, or that looks human.

    They may accept on an intellectual level that "sometimes bad things happen", but it's never really truly sunk in that bad things can happen to them. They are more prepared than the women in that other topic, but they would probably still be lying on a slab at the morgue.

    Just carrying a firearm will not make the women of Philly any safer. It might make them FEEL safer, but that's a false sense of security, and it will end up getting even MORE of them killed, as they take chances they might not take otherwise and yet are unprepared to deal with.

    Training with said firearm is useful, but only if it's the right kind of training. Training similar to the police and military. Multiple targets, low light conditions, shooting with the non-dominant hand, that kind of thing. Shooting at targets that have a face, that have eyes you can look at, that are pictures of another person.

    And even the training isn't that useful if they're caught flat-footed. Mindset isn't just being prepared to end the life of another person if necessary. It's also not putting yourself in situations that can end in violence. It's knowing the actions that scream "PREY!" to the predators out there, and then NOT performing those actions. It's understanding that bad things can happen ANY time, ANY place, to ANYONE, and taking precautions. It's seeing that the situation you're in is kind of sketchy, and being ready in case shit goes down (hand on your pistol, anything slowing your draw out of the way, etc), while you extricate yourself from said situation. Or best yet, NOT putting yourself in those situations.

    Even without a firearm, or a fucking sharp stick, just taking precautions and altering their actions would have saved the lives of those women in Philly. With the right training, the right mindset, and a small 9mm loaded with quality hollowpoints, people on the internet would be reading about a couple of dead ATTEMPTED purse thieves, or attempted thieves who surrendered or fled when their intended victims proved themselves to NOT be prey.

    Mindset and basic precautions will go a LONG way toward preventing trouble, and keeping one from ever NEEDING a firearm, knife, or even pepper spray.

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    Sam I Am's Avatar
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    As soon as I read this in the preview pane:
    Just having a firearm wouldn't have saved those women in Philly. Gear is just one piece of the puzzle.
    .. I was coming to post the same thing on mindset.

    Anybody who doesn't realize that the mind/-set is the #1 weapon doesn't know what in fuck he's talking about. End of story.

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    womanhater's Avatar
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    For all his faults, one thing my dad got right was training me to deal with violence and danger from a VERY young age! To Dave's bigger point - I once saw an unarmed man break an antenna off of a truck and use it to incapacitate a gun wielding attacker. He had the warrior's mindset and control (for not killing the attacker) whereas his assailant had the thug's mindset and simply FELT like a big man because he had a gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I Am View Post
    As soon as I read this in the preview pane:


    .. I was coming to post the same thing on mindset.

    Anybody who doesn't realize that the mind/-set is the #1 weapon doesn't know what in fuck he's talking about. End of story.
    I saw an interview with the head of Israeli airline security once. He said the US had it all backwards when it came to airline safety. He said that Israel screens PEOPLE and not bags. The quote that really sticks in my mind was when he said that Israel would rather fifteen non-terrorists get on an airliner with guns than for a single terrorist to get on an airplane unarmed.

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    i see this is the thread taken off of the philly subject. Dave0311, womanhater, SamIAm that is all i was trying to advocate in the philly cunt thread. Situational awareness is key. It's one of the first things taught in combat and a skill we should teach all youth.

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    I forget where I heard about this being employed as an actual training tool, but when I did read it I thought, "Heeey, I did that!"

    Training CQC with anyone, if you want to dissolve the natural instinct to kill, requires you to confront the emotional reaction you will have in a situation which requires you to employ your training. That's a long winded way of saying train as you fight, because you'll fight as you've trained.

    I used to take oranges and other appropriate fruits from the chow hall, and get some weird looks when I had everyone take one for an unarmed combat class (I don't like MACP, so I don't fucking SAY MACP, besides which I never taught shit from the curriculum). I would place an orange over my eye, and have a soldier jam his thumb into it, to get the "feel" of doing it. What I didn't announce was that I would be screaming bloody murder, and flailing about in my best effort to simulate what I think I might do if someone was doing that to me for real.

    I had tears, refusals, a couple people threw up. The first one got the surprise and shock of realizing what I was going to do, which I didn't announce any other way but, "Well, what did you think I was going to do, fondle your balls?" after the fact. The others who had seen were ones who would joke and snicker about how stupid it was until it was their turn, and then some of them would make their brave attempt and not even pierce the outer layer of the fruit.

    That little bit right there, bringing the reality and humanity to it, removing the cold clinical from the equation and actually making some supposed "hardened" troops experience killing or maiming to as close as I could make it realistic was enough to cause voluntary withdrawal of half of the troops I trained in each rotation.

    People in the civilian world who get their bwack bewts and their handguns just make me laugh when I perceive that they have obviously not imbued themselves with the necessary mental tools to execute the objective when it presents itself. People don't realize half the time what the hell they're doing. Roundhouse kicks to the head properly employed are meant to break necks, and the skill it will take to accomplish this will take a decade to acquire, and still you will not kill at the moment of decision without the mental tools to do it.

    This also goes to speak volumes in further support of guns not killing people, PEOPLE killing people, but not to derail the thread, I merely bring up that to point out that it is so fantastically true. Of the 10% that actually fired their weapons in the World Wars, that was 1 in 10 FIRING. Not necessarily firing at anything but maybe the dirt or over the heads of the enemy. This was the military back when it still had some floor dragging clanging brass balls, in wars where mustard gas, napalm, and machine guns to name a few were new innovations of horrific consequence the likes of which the world had yet to experience to this degree, and they STILL only had 1 in 10 men who were able to get it into their heads to fire back at the people doing these things.

    In light of that, does anyone really think that some clam with her cute little

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    is going to muster up the fortitude to actually make adequate use of it?

    Shit, the way I look at it is if an assailant brought a knife, he brought ME a knife.

    This is not to discount the importance of other training. These guys in Iraq

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    were very mentally ready to kill, they just lacked the training to such a point as the best thing I found to to when being shot at was A) hope that I'm the one they're aiming for and B) stand the fuck still while they hit everything around me.

    To sum up, tools and talent, with talent being both the mechanical and the mental ability, are necessary to insure you're not just bringing another tool for your attacker to turn on you.

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    daves0311's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echhijoker View Post
    i see this is the thread taken off of the philly subject. Dave0311, womanhater, SamIAm that is all i was trying to advocate in the philly cunt thread. Situational awareness is key. It's one of the first things taught in combat and a skill we should teach all youth.
    I know that's what you were getting at. As you can see, I agree. It's part of mindset.

    I just wanted to expand on it a bit.

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    Mindset. Situational awareness. Weighing the consequences. Exactly.

    I think it's fair to say that a prudent, responsible, situationally-aware person is far less likely to encounter trouble, simply by dint of not being oblivious to trouble and not going looking for trouble.

    And to bring it back to a MGTOW/ghost perspective, you can best keep that situational awareness if you're not blinded by pussy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves0311 View Post
    Since TDG asked to keep this thread on track, I am starting this topic here where he requested.

    Contrary to what you may think, based on the post he made about starting this discussion elsewhere, this isn't really a topic about gun rights.

    Gun rights aren't enough. Just having a firearm wouldn't have saved those women in Philly. Gear is just one piece of the puzzle.

    I can't tell you how many people I've met over the years that owned firearms and knew next to fuckall about them.

    I've shown people at the range how to properly load their M16 or AK mags, since they were trying to load them like a pistol mag (which anyone who's spent much time with them knows you don't have to do).

    People that didn't know how to field strip their firearm so that they could clean and lube it. Firearms are machines, and like any machine, they WILL NOT work without maintenance.

    People that barely knew which end of that $1900 Bushmaster AR was the business end. Who didn't know how to use the forward assist if they needed to, who had to LOOK in order to be able to operate the safety or change a magazine, who rode the charging handle forward when putting a round in the chamber and then wondered why the rifle wouldn't fire.

    I can have a loaded rifle and pistol in the sleeping bag with me and not think twice about it. When I still had my own house, I had loaded firearms in every room (some in kitchen drawers or cabinets, some in the bathroom, some just laying on the coffee table, others concealed where they'd be out of sight but I'd be able to get to them quickly and easily). Now I have loaded and unloaded firearms, loaded and unloaded magazines, loose ammo, and loose brass just kind of EVERYWHERE in my area of the house.

    I KNOW my firearms. I know how to operate them, I can load them in the dark just by feel, the ones I use the most I can disassemble and reassemble blindfolded. I know, because I've tested myself before. I took an AR15, AK47, 1911, and Sig P220 (how I miss that pistol..) apart, put all the parts together in a box, set a timer, blindfolded myself, and then timed how long it took me to get them all back together correctly and function check each one. IIRC, it was about 3 minutes, in case you're curious.

    That level of knowledge and comfort wouldn't have saved those women.

    I've seen people with expensive rifles and pistols who couldn't make shots more complicated than a can at 25 feet (with a rifle) or a large paper target at 10 feet (with a pistol), using slow, aimed fire. People who just go out and pop off shots to make noise and make dirt fly. Or they shoot TV's, boxes, water heaters, whatever.

    Yes, sometimes I shoot rocks....from a few hundred meters away. Rocks typically about the size of an average man's chest. From 150-400 meters away. I also shoot silhouettes, mannequins, targets that I make myself that are the appropriate shape (human), I think you get the picture. I practice engaging multiple targets as quickly as possible, failure to stop drills (two to the chest, one to the head), FTS on multiple targets, 'tactical' (I fucking hate that word...) magazine changes, shooting from cover, MOVING from cover to cover, transitioning from an empty rifle to a loaded pistol and engaging targets, all kinds of fun shit.

    And those skills wouldn't have saved those women.

    Skills are only one more aspect of what I've seen referred to as "The Combat Triad". Equipment. Skills. And....

    Mindset.

    Two books that I absolutely CANNOT recommend enough are "On Combat" and "On Killing", both by Col. Dave Grossman. He goes into a LOT more detail than I'm going to here. Whether you're a combat vet struggling with your experiences, a crime victim, someone who lives in a high crime area, or are just interested in the psychology and what he has to say, these books are both EXCELLENT reads.

    Now, on with my post.

    The War Department (back in the day, when it was called the War Dept) did studies on American soldiers and Marines in an attempt to raise combat effectiveness. They found that somewhere around 10%, IIRC, actually fired their weapons in combat. Ten. Percent. Why didn't the rest? They had never had a person in their sights before. In training, they'd shot at bullseye targets. I don't care WHO you're fighting, there ain't a human enemy on this Earth that looks like a bullseye. Natural instinct to NOT KILL, combined with society's teachings about violence and killing, kept them from pulling the trigger and dropping the other guy.

    Now you're probably thinking that it's not a natural instinct to not kill, and besides, we've been doing it for thousands of years, we ought to be damn good at it, right? Well, this is covered too, but in a nutshell, most of the killing done in combat was done once one side became convinced that they'd lost, and they tried to retreat. The moment they turned their backs on the soon-to-be victors, they went from being 'another man dressed in armor and carrying a sword or spear', to being 'a target running away from me'. And THIS is when the majority of killing took place.

    In order to combat this, the US military switched to silhouette targets that are basically human shaped (if the person in question has their hands at their sides). The 'shoot rate' went to something like 25% around WWII/Korean War.

    Twenty-five percent. These aren't 12-year old homeschooled kids we're talking about, these are SOLDIERS and MARINES from all walks of life, from all over the country. Machinists, cab drivers, hunters and trappers, mechanics, farm boys, you name it. And only ONE in FOUR fired his weapon. Some of them even aimed it in the general direction of the enemy.



    Thanks to changes in training, long about Vietnam the shoot rate went to somewhere around 50-60%, IIRC. A lot of them were just firing into the jungle, but at least they WERE shooting.

    The military has come a long way since then, and now, the shoot rate is somewhere around 90-96%, IIRC.

    NINE out of TEN American soldiers and Marines will fire at the enemy. AT the enemy, not 'in their general direction'.

    It takes a lot of training to overcome the natural impulse and social conditioning to not kill. The military spends months training an infantryman. He does simulators, he does training with blanks, he does live fire. He trains in a lot of the same things I train in. He is drilled and trained repeatedly, so that if the time comes, he can kill without hesitation, because to hesitate may mean HE gets killed.

    And THAT is what this topic is about.

    Mindset.

    There are a lot of people that carry that I sincerely hope that whatever gods they believe in watch out for them, because even though they know how to use their firearm and they are proficient with it, they don't have the mindset for a firefight. They've never shot at anything that can bleed when it's hit, or that looks human.

    They may accept on an intellectual level that "sometimes bad things happen", but it's never really truly sunk in that bad things can happen to them. They are more prepared than the women in that other topic, but they would probably still be lying on a slab at the morgue.

    Just carrying a firearm will not make the women of Philly any safer. It might make them FEEL safer, but that's a false sense of security, and it will end up getting even MORE of them killed, as they take chances they might not take otherwise and yet are unprepared to deal with.

    Training with said firearm is useful, but only if it's the right kind of training. Training similar to the police and military. Multiple targets, low light conditions, shooting with the non-dominant hand, that kind of thing. Shooting at targets that have a face, that have eyes you can look at, that are pictures of another person.

    And even the training isn't that useful if they're caught flat-footed. Mindset isn't just being prepared to end the life of another person if necessary. It's also not putting yourself in situations that can end in violence. It's knowing the actions that scream "PREY!" to the predators out there, and then NOT performing those actions. It's understanding that bad things can happen ANY time, ANY place, to ANYONE, and taking precautions. It's seeing that the situation you're in is kind of sketchy, and being ready in case shit goes down (hand on your pistol, anything slowing your draw out of the way, etc), while you extricate yourself from said situation. Or best yet, NOT putting yourself in those situations.

    Even without a firearm, or a fucking sharp stick, just taking precautions and altering their actions would have saved the lives of those women in Philly. With the right training, the right mindset, and a small 9mm loaded with quality hollowpoints, people on the internet would be reading about a couple of dead ATTEMPTED purse thieves, or attempted thieves who surrendered or fled when their intended victims proved themselves to NOT be prey.

    Mindset and basic precautions will go a LONG way toward preventing trouble, and keeping one from ever NEEDING a firearm, knife, or even pepper spray.
    All of this is spot on. I have also read both of those books as well as several others. One being, The Darker Side Of Man. I agree that a pistol is not enough that is why I mentioned Combat Shooting. A lot of former Marines I know are making a damn killing indoctrinating civilians into our mind set. It’s not the same as years in uniform or actual combat but it does work. In on Combat it also went over why we changed to the Echo and Dog silhouettes vice Able targets. It broke down the psychological barrier to actually pull the trigger; you equated the target as human and vice versa. Further I really enjoyed the portion on learned attributes via video games. I am eagerly waiting for some correlation made between our success on the modern battle field during Iraq and Afghanistan to my generations lack of psychological fear from said indoctrination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ounumen View Post
    All of this is spot on. I have also read both of those books as well as several others. One being, The Darker Side Of Man. I agree that a pistol is not enough that is why I mentioned Combat Shooting. A lot of former Marines I know are making a damn killing indoctrinating civilians into our mind set. It’s not the same as years in uniform or actual combat but it does work. In on Combat it also went over why we changed to the Echo and Dog silhouettes vice Able targets. It broke down the psychological barrier to actually pull the trigger; you equated the target as human and vice versa. Further I really enjoyed the portion on learned attributes via video games. I am eagerly waiting for some correlation made between our success on the modern battle field during Iraq and Afghanistan to my generations lack of psychological fear from said indoctrination.
    The only part I didn't like about those books was where he basically blamed almost all the violence in our society on video games.

    Video games didn't make the Columbine killers shoot up their school; being treated like they were subhuman, being put on "ADHD" drugs, and being marginalized did. Video games might have made it easier for them to kill, but they would have done so regardless.

    I'll have to see if they have that other book at the library.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves0311 View Post
    Video games didn't make the Columbine killers shoot up their school; being treated like they were subhuman, being put on "ADHD" drugs, and being marginalized did. Video games might have made it easier for them to kill, but they would have done so regardless.
    ^QFMFT

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    There's two sides to the self defense coin.

    Mindset is a part of it, no question. But at the same time, you need the hardware to be an effective combatant.You could be the most mentally badass guy out and about, but gun beats knife and paper beats rock.So what that you're a good MMA practitioner.It's irrelevant if the scumbags five yards away and puts a .380 in your skull.

    Next, the hardware requires a skill commitment. I realized something over a decade ago during my first sexual relationship.My teenage ass didn't know jack shit about getting a chick off, and I needed to up my skillset fast. So I camped out in the "Relationship" section of the neighborhood Borders and got my house in order.I started with the books on tantric sex and went on down the aisle . Most guys suck in bed because they think they're born with the knowledge , and so it goes with firearms. Men collectively think they're capable of hitting a target under stress by gift of genetics.

    In real life, the winner of the gunfight goes to the dude with the best skillset.Luck helps too.I'm reminded of a case where a sheriff patrolling a rural area ran into two cartel enforcers in the dark of night.The bad guys had an illegal SMG and a Colt 1911.The cop had a six shot S&W .357 .

    When the dust settled, the bad guys were on the ground with two .358 diamater holes in their skulls, and the good guy had a dirty revolver and a helluva story.

    In looking at the specific case of the women in Philly, I'd say a gun COULD have saved them for one reason. A firearm is an equalizer of force .God made man, and Sam Colt made them equal as the saying goes.A thug interested in violence for kicks sees a guy/girl with a gun and thinks "fuck that, I'll go somewhere else." The average criminal isn't carrying a gun to live out a Call of Duty fantasy. They're packing heat as a matter of power, and another party with a gun takes the stakes to a place REALLY not worth the price.That's ultimately why they probably capped those women- shooting someone they can't control represents the ultimate power trip.Getting shot thenselves ain't part of the plan.

    BTW, I'm not speaking in terms of theory here.I've seen a thug literally book a ninety degree turn because he saw my holstered Beretta during his approach to my car at zero dark thirty.
    Last edited by Octavian; 05-02-14 at 10:49 PM.

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    Some very good points made here.

    Personally, I am familiar with Grossman's work and I also highly recommend it.

    I suppose my posts in the previous discussion were at cross purposes to this one. See, having trained in martial arts my whole life, i take for granted the deeper truths about violence and the "mindset" as you call it daves0311. I also take it for granted that most people don't have it and won't put the time in to properly train.

    My point was that the twats in question fit the profile of the anti-gun nut jobs. That is, they are female, from a big city and likely democrat. That is the typical anti-gun/anti-self defense wacko. All of your points about proper mindset are spot on. My point is that people who lack this mindset should not be ACTIVELY trying to DENY basic human rights to others. They are free to walk through dangerous neighborhoods in they want, armed or unarmed. They are free to start training if they wish. The only point i was trying to make is that this chick who knows nothing about real danger/real violence and what real self defense looks like, should shut up when it comes to that subject.

    Maybe a handgun WOULD have saved her. Maybe having the proper mindset would have saved her. Maybe she could have bluffed her way out of it. Maybe boxing training could have saved her. Maybe having friends with her would have saved her. Maybe prevention would have saved her. Maybe living a different lifestyle would have saved her. Maybe NONE of that wold have helped, or maybe ALL would have been necessary to save her. Who the hell knows! These are complex situations and, in discussing them, its likely that NO ONE THING would have saved her. All the above (and infinite others) are just options. My critique is with the connection between the high numbers of females who vote democrat/anti-gun, who vote to punish VICTIMS of crime (for not running away etc) then ask where the men are to defend her. I see a real connection there. BDG (and women) have created this climate where white-knighting is dangerous and (more importantly) thankless, even punishable. There is a connection between these things and fewer men willing or able to defend her.

    I'm making an assumption that she is ant-gun of course but she damn sure fits the profile. A gun is one piece of the picture when it comes to self defense. That's all. One piece. Training is another piece, different weapons or empty hands are yet other pieces. Physicality is another, mindset is another, situational awareness is another. The list goes on, many of these subjects dovetail neatly together. To be anti-gun is to randomly eliminate one piece. By one such as she its made all the worse since she is especially ignorant as to the larger subjects of violence/self defense. That is ridiculous, stupid and hypocritical.

    Violent bullies picking on weaker people and politicians demonizing those weaker people who may try to defend themselves, strikes a cord with me.

    The hypocrisy of people being anti-gun who know nothing about self defense, nothing about guns, nothing about violence is too much for me to not comment on sometimes.

    Further hypocrisy from women who take NO precautions and have NO concept of real danger along with NO ability to defend themselves, blaming males as a gender - well, that gets my dander up too I guess.

    All of that lead to me derailing (or nearly) that other topic. My apologies.

    Hope that makes my position more clear.
    Last edited by Deepthinkindude; 05-02-14 at 11:09 PM.

  14. #14
    zed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves0311 View Post
    I KNOW my firearms. I know how to operate them, I can load them in the dark just by feel, the ones I use the most I can disassemble and reassemble blindfolded.

    That level of knowledge and comfort wouldn't have saved those women.

    I practice engaging multiple targets as quickly as possible, failure to stop drills (two to the chest, one to the head), FTS on multiple targets, 'tactical' (I fucking hate that word...) magazine changes, shooting from cover, MOVING from cover to cover, transitioning from an empty rifle to a loaded pistol and engaging targets, all kinds of fun shit.

    And those skills wouldn't have saved those women.

    Skills are only one more aspect of what I've seen referred to as "The Combat Triad". Equipment. Skills. And....

    Mindset.

    Two books that I absolutely CANNOT recommend enough are "On Combat" and "On Killing", both by Col. Dave Grossman.

    And even training isn't that useful if they're caught flat-footed. Mindset isn't just being prepared to end the life of another person if necessary. It's also not putting yourself in situations that can end in violence. It's knowing the actions that scream "PREY!" to the predators out there, and then NOT performing those actions. It's understanding that bad things can happen ANY time, ANY place, to ANYONE, and taking precautions. It's seeing that the situation you're in is kind of sketchy, and being ready in case shit goes down (hand on your pistol, anything slowing your draw out of the way, etc), while you extricate yourself from said situation. Or best yet, NOT putting yourself in those situations.

    Even without a firearm, or a fucking sharp stick, just taking precautions and altering their actions would have saved the lives of those women in Philly. With the right training, the right mindset, and a small 9mm loaded with quality hollowpoints, people on the internet would be reading about a couple of dead ATTEMPTED purse thieves, or attempted thieves who surrendered or fled when their intended victims proved themselves to NOT be prey.

    Mindset and basic precautions will go a LONG way toward preventing trouble, and keeping one from ever NEEDING a firearm, knife, or even pepper spray.
    I'm really glad you wrote this, dave. It is one of the best posts I've seen on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Notorious G.I.T.
    That's a long winded way of saying train as you fight, because you'll fight as you've trained.
    With all due respect to our trained combat veterans here, I would point out that there is a huge difference between a combat stance and a defensive stance.

    Dave did a beautiful job of covering how difficult the armed forces found it to train guys to kill someone else, even in a combat situation. Guys who are there to kill people, and know damn well that there are other guys there who want to kill him, have to really hair up to take another person's life.

    I want to add to that the Tueller Drill. A trained and prepared Law Enforcement Officer generally cannot draw a holstered gun and get off even one shot if the attacker launches himself at the officer from a distance of less than 20 feet.

    As GIT pointed out, you need to train as you fight, because you'll fight as you've trained. Trained LEOs still cannot react quickly enough to draw a holstered firearm and get off even even one shot if the attacker attacks suddenly enough.

    There is so much malarkey going around this culture about guns. A handgun is not a Star Trek phaser set to stun and wide dispersion. You can't just wave one at a thug and have him back down out of fright.

    They are portable devices capable of LETHAL force, and are only useful in the hands of someone who is mentally prepared - having the mindset, as dave puts it - of exercising that lethal force.

    In civilian self-defense classes, they stress that you do not shoot to wound, or to kill, or to warn. You shoot to stop the threat. Full stop. In many states it is actually illegal to fire a "warning shot." The justification for that is that if the threat was not sufficient to exercise lethal force, what the fuck were you doing pulling the trigger in the first place?

    So, put yourself in the place of the dead woman. She was not in combat, nor facing a clear threat. Police often tell people to give up your belongings to an armed assailant. She did that.

    What clear cut threat existed which would have justified her resorting to lethal force?

    None.

    The first evidence that her life was in danger was being killed.

    Perhaps trained combat veterans like dave or GIT, who are situationally aware, and have their hands on their handguns, might have been able to react quickly enough to save their lives if it looked like the shooter was nutso. But, no disrespect to them or their skills, I would have my doubts. If a guy can cover 20 feet in 1.5 seconds, someone standing less than 5 feet away with a gun in his hand, can raise that gun and fire in 1/5 of that time.

    Guys here climb on LEOs' backs when they have a hair trigger. I really don't want to live in a world where every brain dead bimbo walks out to her car with her hand on her 9mm, ready to commit mayhem at a moment's notice.

    No, the only salvation for this woman would have been for her to NOT have intentionally, and deliberately, put herself in harm's way.

    I don't have combat training like dave or GIT, but I grew up in the backwoods where if you didn't hunt, or shoot well, you didn't eat. I can't do it any more, but when I was younger I could shoot an aspirin out of the air with a BB gun. I shot trap every Sunday, and 96/100 was a bad day for me. I have many perfect rounds on my record. My old man had a friend who could down 2 quail on a covey rise, with a single shot shotgun.

    And, none of us would be here today if we had been in that woman's situation, unless we had our hands on the gun, and it was cocked and locked, and we were willing to shoot down the first fool that looked at us cockeyed.

    My old man gave me a bit of advice that was the only thing which would have helped this woman -
    When the trouble starts, be somewhere else.
    Situational awareness, don't be stupid.
    Last edited by zed; 06-02-14 at 02:24 AM.

  15. #15
    daves0311's Avatar
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    YZed, you brought up something I wanted to mention but didn't know the name of.

    In a lot of defensive handgun training courses, shooting drills and tests, etc, a common distance from shooter to target is 7 yards (21 feet, or what about 6.3 meters or so). This is exactly because of what zed mentioned: at distances of less than 21 feet, an assailant with a knife WILL cut/stab you before you can draw and engage. Even if you're not carrying in a holster designed to make drawing a pain in the ass for you (so as to reduce the chance of a bad guy getting the weapon) like cops have, even if all you have on over the pistol is a t-shirt.

    Thats why I said a firearm likely wouldnt have saved them. Unless they were aware of the approaching threat, had their hand on the pistol, and the criminal didnt have his weapon out and pointed at them, they wouldnt have been able to react in time.

    Now if all the above were true? She's got her hand on the nine in the purse, hes got his in his waistband and just shows it to her while demanding the purse....then yeah, if she's got the training and the mindset, she can draw and put a couple of pills in his chest before he processes what's going on.

    However, most anyone with that level of skill/training, mindset, and situational awareness, wouldn't have put themself in that position in the first damn place. Allowing a shady character to approach, at that time of night, in one of America's big cities? I don't allow that shit, and I live near a city of MAYBE forty thousand, where violent crime is low and lethal violent crime is even lower, and as long as you aren't part of the local druggie culture your chance of being the victim are VERY low.

    But then, I'm a man who's aware of the dangers out in the world, who takes precautions, who avoids problem areas, and who doesn't go around making obvious displays of wealth. I most certainly am NOT an entitled, petulant, spoiled princess special snowflake cunt cupcake who thinks that the world exists solely for my entertainment and pleasure.

    This is another thing that can be laid squarely at the feet of feminism. These dead women, their blood is on Big Red's hands, and the hands of every other feminazi cunt. Teaching them that they can just do whatever they want and everything will be ok because they have gashes......insanity.

    Actions have consequences. There's no getting around it, no matter what genitals you have.

    Zed, thanks again for reminding me about that.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves0311 View Post
    However, most anyone with that level of skill/training, mindset, and situational awareness, wouldn't have put themself in that position in the first damn place.
    QFMFT

    Quote Originally Posted by daves0311 View Post
    I most certainly am NOT an entitled, petulant, spoiled princess special snowflake cunt cupcake who thinks that the world exists solely for my entertainment and pleasure.
    Wait, you're NOT a princess? Geez, ya think ya know a guy...

  17. #17
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    QFT! Great thread!

    You know what pisses me off about the Philly situation & the female reaction to it? They all talk this big, paranoid game about how "EVERY MAN IS A RAAAAAAAYYYYYPIIIIIIIISSSST!!! BEING ALONE IN AN ELEVATOR WITH A CREEPY "NICE" GUY WILL END UP WITH ME GETTING MURDERED!!!!"



    And then, when it comes down to practicing ACTUAL situational awareness & safety, they just blunder along like blind-folded babies crawling into a bear trap!

    Given that concealed carry is not an option here in Canuckistan, and I lack military/police training, I make heavy use of the third side of the pyramid:

    When trouble starts, be somewhere else.
    Anything else is just stupid.
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    This thread reminds me of an article i have since lost the link to... it spoke about how in the military, only a small percent of the combatants actually do most of the killing.. Natural Born Killers they are called...

  19. #19
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    However, most anyone with that level of skill/training, mindset, and situational awareness, wouldn't have put themself in that position in the first damn place.
    This was what stuck out from that thread that I thought was so typical of feminine hypocrisy. I have been trained on firearms for law enforcement, military, and security. Repetiviely. These dumb bitches go out in harm's way and expect to play the damsel in distress card for their own fucking stupidity. AND THEN THEY BLAME MEN!

    Thank Fuck I'm single. I frequently test myself wherever I am though. Would I be prepared to pull a gun if I had to? It is a mental practice that is identical to practicing with a firearm: use it or lose it.

    I have actually had a few instances where threats were imminent. And do you know what? My gun was already out. I made it real obvious that it was there. Problem solved before it occured. Otherwise your chances really are slim a woman can reach into a purse and pull out her little pistola fast enough. Chances are she'll whip out her dildo by mistake.

    Statistically, most gun fights are less than 20 feet in between. So, that's close. It boils down to the lesson on Unforgiven. It's not the speed. It's if you can hit what you're aiming at.

    Anyhow, Dave mentioned a Sig 220. I had one too. I still miss that piece. Mine was a compact with night sights.

    But a gun is just a tool. It is no more capable of violence than a bicycle. Get stupid with it, and you get problems. Those that are hellbent on gun control have very serious ulterior motives, that they choose to keep secret.

    But for proficiency, I typically like to handle my firearm every day or so, just to be acquainted with the feel.

    Often, I practice field stripping my beloved Kimber 1911 in the dark.

    Because men get familiar with how to use tools.


    Now I feel like watching Deathwish.


    *Edit: It was a 220 Carry. Not a compact. 4"
    Last edited by mr.anonymous; 06-02-14 at 10:58 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by obmon View Post
    This thread reminds me of an article i have since lost the link to... it spoke about how in the military, only a small percent of the combatants actually do most of the killing.. Natural Born Killers they are called...
    I read that too, and I THINK it may be in one of the books I mentioned. Basically it is the 1% that was mentioned in the quote in my first post. It was a good, interesting read.

    Now I'm gonna have to re-read those books. After a few others I have in the lineup first.

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