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Thread: Men being driven to poverty by divorce laws & alimony in Western Europe

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    Men being driven to poverty by divorce laws & alimony in Western Europe

    Yendo_Sur
    Men being driven to poverty by divorce laws & alimony in Western Europe

    In Italy, Economy and Law Leave Many Single Fathers Broke and Homeless

    xhttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/26/world/europe/in-italy-economy-and-law-leave-many-single-fathers-broke-and-homeless.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

    Indeed, one man, who gave his name as Franco, did not want to be fully identified to avoid suffering the shame if his wife and two daughters learned of his troubles. After his restaurant went bankrupt, he traveled in April to Milan from his native Puglia, in Italy’s far south, to find a job so he could keep up alimony payments to his wife of 34 years, with whom he had split about a year and half ago, he said.

    “In Puglia I was living day to day but I couldn’t keep that up forever,” said Franco, 56, who said he was still supporting his daughters, both of whom are in their early twenties but unemployed.
    Separations and divorces have steadily risen in this traditionally Roman Catholic country since divorce was legalized in 1970 and then reaffirmed in a referendum in 1974. In 1995, 158 of every 1,000 marriages ended in separation, and 80 out of 1,000 ended in divorce. In 2009, the last year for which statistics were available, the numbers had reached 297 separations and 181 divorces per thousand, according to Istat, the national statistics agency.
    You do the math. 297 separations + 181 divorces = 478 out of 1000 marriages ending in failure... just on the brink of 50%.
    So let me get this straight... I have 50/50 odds of either having a marriage that stays in tact, but could be loveless, sexless and miserable
    or,
    I could lose everything I own and live under a bridge.

    Seems like good odds to me.

    When Umberto Vaghi split from his wife in 2004, for example, he was ordered to pay her €2,000 a month to keep up their home and raise their two children, then 10 and 8. Mr. Vaghi, a manager, was earning €2,200 a month.
    [quote]Similarly, in Spain, court filings against fathers who have not paid alimony have risen sharply since the start of the economic crisis. Recent news reports in places like Navarra and Galicia describe fathers who have been jailed for failing to support their children. In April last year, a Barcelona judge denied parental custody to a divorced father, citing the fact that he had lost his job.

    Lose your job, you can't be a father anymore.

    But you better still have them checks coming, or we'll throw you in jail.


    Blkpanther
    When the reset button is finally hit worldwide, I sincerely hope these child support laws are one of the first things to go the way of the dinosaur. Its utterly ridiculous to throw a man in jail over not being able to pay child support. If a man loses his job, that is not the man's fault. Governments that support this ****ery should be overthrown because it is financial terrorism on fathers.

    Its interesting that when a single mother loses her job or can't take care of her children on her own she gets welfare and other government subsidies.

    A man in the same position gets thrown in jail.

    It's discrimination, it's wrong for men to be betrayed in this fashion by the very government that they support with their taxpayer dollars.. This draconian child support slavery of men needs to end in Europe and America or those governments should be overthrown. The ****ery needs to come to an abrupt halt by any means necessary. When these ankles lose their jobs can't pay their bills why not throw THEM in jail for failure to pay, but instead they get WIC, Welfare, checks, job programs and other forms of AID. The systems subsidizes women but criminalizes men for inability to pay through no fault of their own. It's not just the feminists, it's the governing bodies that have failed to run a fair and just system for all and they should be either forced to operate justly and fairly or they should be overthrown. Fortunately, fundamentaly flawed systems have a strange way of collapsing on themselves as would a house built upon rotted stone.


    mrsidewayz
    You see how certain people are arguing for gay marriage and such? That is at least how persistently men should be arguing against unfair divorce and family court laws. Otherwise they will actually be the LAST things to change. The system knows it is doing men wrong here. People working for the courts and agencies that put men in these catch 22's know full well it is unethical and should be illegal but do you see them doing jack shit about it? When you see governments getting more and more draconian by default, you should probably assume they don't have the best interests of the common man at heart, they are more about keeping the status quo or even worse amassing more and more power and influence rather than righting the wrongs...the common man is going to have to make a hell of a lot of noise to get change happening, especially if there isn't some huge lobby for his concerns. In short don't expect the system to fix itself in this regard. Men are going to have to stand up for themselves and fix the system.

    Deathslayer

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    Gromnir's Avatar
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    It will be nigh impossible to get these laws voted out when both women and their accompanying manginas will support keeping them in place. A politician that stands up against these injustices would be committing political suicide by losing the woman vote. Tyranny of the majority.

    The best way to fight it is to refuse to have children. Get a vasectomy or abstain, just don't feed the system by having children. The feminists must be absolutely shitting themselves over RISUG.

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    Being someone caught in the "no-fault" alimony scam myself, not to mention blatant parental kidnapping and alienation with corresponding child support costs, I cringe inside every time I hear of a wedding.

    Marriage is the quickest way you can be subjected to criminal punishment without actually being convicted of a crime. Married men are not thrown in jail when they get laid off. Men who pay alimony, if you get laid off, heaven help you. No jury, no trial for you. Whatever the judge feels like doing to you, can and will be done without due process. Including imprisonment.

    From what I understand prenups are illegal in the UK, this could also be the case through Europe. The only hope to maintain your civil liberties is to avoid the "crime" of marriage.
    Last edited by piedpiper; 05-29-2012 at 03:41 PM.

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    If there was a smart government anywhere on Earth, they'd proclaim themselves an "alimony and child support haven" and refuse to extradite any male from any where who resided there.

    Said nation would be absolutely awash in talent from the four corners of the world.

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    And yet Italy, Spain, and every other Western, feminized hellhole wrings their collective hands about fewer marriages and rapidly declining birthrates already well below replacement levels.

    It's really simple....you get more of what you subsidize and reward and less of what you punish. Of course changing the status quo would be a death blow to the family court and prison enterprises. We couldn't let that happen, could we?

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    If there was a smart government anywhere on Earth, they'd proclaim themselves an "alimony and child support haven" and refuse to extradite any male from any where who resided there.

    If they were truly smart, they would grant amnesty without declaring anything.

    And truly smart men would be going there and saying nothing.

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    artbunker
    This legal enslavement of men is getting out of hand in western countries. I really cant see any of this, but at most paying alimony for 5 years is all a guy should have to pay. If you cant get your shit together after 5 years tough on alimony. Man the system is getting out of hand. I thought America was bad. I didn't realize the poison was world wide


    Blkpanther
    I concur.
    No ****ery goes on forever. What goes up what must come down. When the reset button is hit worldwide, you will see a serious reversal in these trends of injustice where this kind of ****ery is allowed on men. Once the system that supports it falls, so will the ****ery. Ankles and anklism are only as strong as the system that supports them.


    mrsidewayz
    We can only hope that what rises up from the ashes will be more just than what we see now...that is assuming the powers that be actually give a **** about the common man's plight (they don't, and there is no evidence that they will even after the system crashes, if anything they are preparing to **** us over even more in the future).

    I have a bad feeling about this....bad times seem to bring the worst out of humanity rather than bring the best out of them. Just reference the link between poverty, recession/depression and increasing crime rates.

    When people in general turn their back on integrity and stop caring about doing what's right and only look to pleasing themselves, there is no legislation that can be signed that will give people back their souls once they've chosen to sell out.

    I don't think what rises out of a failed democracy will be more democracy, nor do I think it will be fair, rather I can look forward and seeing certain power hungry individuals taking advantage of the situation and putting measures in place to ensure that they remain in power, and they may just rig it so that anything they say goes or else, prison or death for you.

    There are serious consequences to us all if everything completely goes to shit and we will lose far more than just some money over it, we will lose sanity and humanity too. This is why I say it is better to fix it before everything crashes cause once the crash happens there will be a domino effect and NOBODY will like that mess.

    If your car started making odd noises under the hood I am sure you would take it to a good mechanic or fix it yourself if you are so inclined. You wouldn't keep driving it w/o it getting checked out, would you? Because rest assured when (not if) it breaks down it will be much more expensive to fix. You'd have to get a wrecker because the car will surely break down at the worst time far away from home lol. Other components may go bad too leading to more expenses than you are able to pay at the time, or worse the car breaking down on the highway could lead to an accident, you could lose your life or cause somebody else to lose theirs.

    There is something to be said for preventative measures being taken and fixing what is broken rather than rocking it till the wheels fall off and disaster strikes.

    Because we may not necessarally survive the "crash" if you get what I'm saying.

    Plus, I wouldn't trust most people who sat back and did nothing about it while the injustice was happening to actually rebuild anything when the smoke clears. Most don't have it in them...it requires too much work for their liking or it takes them out of their comfort zone, or they prefer to leave the hard work for others to do. we have become a self absorbed generation who has grown shortsighted and doesn't care about the legacy we leave behind for the next generation and those to come. Until that mentality changes among the current crop of people living right now, I don't expect great things to ensue.


    rickscorpio
    ...I can't lie, I don't feel sorry for some of those men at all. Anyone married in the last 7 to 10 years or so has more than enough empirical evidence that marriage is exclusively for a woman's benefit and not a man. Only a FOOL would get married in now if he had anything to loose. These ankles have made is loud and clear they WILL ass rape a man in court when it is time to cash out on them. No man cannot dare say he was not warned of these consequences!!!

    Blkpanther
    We can only hope that what rises up from the ashes will be more just than what we see now...that is assuming the powers that be actually give a **** about the common man's plight (they don't, and there is no evidence that they will even after the system crashes, if anything they are preparing to **** us over even more in the future). I have a bad feeling about this....bad times seem to bring the worst out of humanity rather than bring the best out of them. Just reference the link between poverty, recession/depression and increasing crime rates. When people in general turn their back on integrity and stop caring about doing what's right and only look to pleasing themselves, there is no legislation that can be signed that will give people back their souls once they've chosen to sell out.

    I don't think what rises out of a failed democracy will be more democracy, nor do I think it will be fair, rather I can look forward and seeing certain power hungry individuals taking advantage of the situation and putting measures in place to ensure that they remain in power, and they may just rig it so that anything they say goes or else, prison or death for you.

    There are serious consequences to us all if everything completely goes to shit and we will loose far more than just some money over it, we will lose sanity and humanity too. This is why I say it is better to fix it before everything crashes cause once the crash happens there will be a domino effect and NOBODY will like that mess.

    If your car started making odd noises under the hood I am sure you would take it to a good mechanic or fix it yourself if you are so inclined. You wouldn't keep driving it w/o it getting checked out, would you? Because rest assured when (not if) it breaks down it will be much more expensive to fix. You'd have to get a wrecker because the car will surely break down at the worst time far away from home lol. Other components may go bad too leading to more expenses than you are able to pay at the time, or worse the car breaking down on the highway could lead to an accident, you could lose your life or cause somebody else to lose theirs.

    There is something to be said for preventative measures being taken and fixing what is broken rather than rocking it till the wheels fall off and disaster strikes.

    Because we may not necessarally survivine the "crash" if you get what I'm saying.


    Plus, I wouldn't trust most people who sat back and did nothing about it while the injustice was happening to actually rebuild anything when the smoke clears. Most don't have it in them...it requires too much work for their liking or it takes them out of their comfort zone, or they prefer to leave the hard work for others to do. we have become a self absorbed generation who has grown shortsighted and doesn't care about the legacy we leave behind for the next generation and those to come. Until that mentality changes among the current crop of people living right now, I don't expect great things to ensue.
    I can't argue with you there, because what you said makes perfect sense. What rises up out of most failed/collapsed societies is utter anarchy temporarily at least. Corrupt social/financial/legal systems ultimately collapse under the weight of its own rotted mess. At some point though there is a kind of change (or at least there should be) from the old way of doing things because its been proven that it does work. Like you said, it really does depend on what individual comes in to power. The resulting society will be a reflection of his or their thinking, much like society is a reflection of the thinking of the current people/group in power. Just have to be wary of who comes into power. I'm just hopeful that we can turn things around without the reset button ever being hit in the first place.

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    mrsidewayz
    ...I can't lie, I don't feel sorry for some of those men at all. Anyone married in the last 7 to 10 years or so has more than enough empirical evidence that marriage is exclusively for a woman's benefit and not a man. Only a FOOL would get married in now if he had anything to loose. These ankles have made is loud and clear they WILL ass rape a man in court when it is time to cash out on them. No man cannot dare say he was not warned of these consequences!!!
    A man is expected to pay a woman's way during the marriage, and even after the marriage is over.

    Current society and the courts enforce this.

    Yet women claim they are the oppressed gender.

    If someone can't see the scam inherent in that, they are either indoctrinated, in denial or in kahootz with the scam. The fact that this bullshit is allowed to fly freely in civilizations means most women are selfish creatures and opportunists, while most men have been neutered and don't have the balls even to put into cupcake's purse in the first place.

    And this is also the reason why it is so difficult to get men to stand up for themselves and their rights BEFORE they wind up being driven into poverty by divorce laws and alimony. They seem to lack the will to do so. This must be addressed before you see anything change.

    One problem I see is that many men who wind up getting ****ed over tend to believe that they must accept the fraudulent way things are, take the obviously bad deal and buy the fickle, selfish, greedy, graze-where-the-grass-is-greener cow if they are to get what they want. So they go along with it even if it is high risk. But many of these guys don't even get what they signed on for. We have to stop doing that, we have to stop signing off on the terms that **** us over, and start demanding that the laws be made fair, or else simply stop marrying and/or giving these women children until we have fair terms.

    Until men in general are willing to take that kind of stand,

    the current ****ery will continue,
    men will become poorer as women become richer,
    yet women will still claim victimhood so the brain-dead among us will continue to say

    "well since women are oppressed I guess I should put up with them screwing me over".

    "Well enough is enough, and it's time for a change." - Owen Hart


    These days I am seeing even the men who didn't get a divorce, even the men who were supposedly happily married, decent dudes who support their families under the same roof as them, drop dead well before their time of heart attacks in their early 40's and 50's. Something is wrong even in the case of the men who stay married to their wives. We need to look at that too.

    It's not just the courts that need to change,
    society needs to stop putting the majority of the burden on men's backs while women sit back in their "empowerment" and "liberation" and count the money rather than contribute meaningfully to the couple/family's bottom line like we know they could and should.

    That lopsided one way street system always leads to men suffering unjustly in the end, whether one stays married or divorces. Just remember, even if you stay married, if you work yourself into an early grave trying to make cupcake comfortable and happy, she profits some more off of the life insurance policy. So women are insured during the marriage, until death of the husband or divorce, either way they make out like bandits who just committed highway robbery and you'd be hard pressed to find a woman who even sees this as unfair towards men.

    While men (who believe in chivalry) tend to lose from the very first date onward but accept this as the cost of doing (very bad) business. We have to change the way we think about this to see how rigid traditionalism lends itself to mind****ing men into ruts they can't get out of.


    mrsidewayz
    I can't argue with you there, because what you said makes perfect sense. What rises up out of most failed/collapsed societies is utter anarchy temporarily at least. Corrupt social/financial/legal systems ultimately collapse under the weight of its own rotted mess. At some point though there is a kind of change (or at least there should be) from the old way of doing things because its been proven that it does work. Like you said, it really does depend on what individual comes in to power. The resulting society will be a reflection of his or their thinking, much like society is a reflection of the thinking of the current people/group in power. Just have to be wary of who comes into power. I'm just hopeful that we can turn things around without the reset button ever being hit in the first place.
    My thinking is that it's not just the people in power (this is a big part of it) but also the people who make up the society...if the values of the people are broken, good luck getting justice, good luck getting reform, etc. because the people won't bother to stand up for what's right on principle.

    We live in a world where like in the Brian Banks case,

    a woman can make a false rape claim,
    get the man put in prison for several years of his life for a crime he didn't commit,
    sue an organization that had nothing to do with it (the school system),
    get a 1.5 million dollar payout, and
    THEN STILL recieve public assistance, she can basically cause all of this calamity and when it comes to light that it was all based on a fraudulent lie, the system does not prosecute even though several laws were broken and intentional fraud was committed on several levels and grievous harm was done. What's even worse is the community does not want to come after the ***** with torches and pitchforks on principle.

    (Meanwhile they are trying to throw the book at Oscar fuller for punching the woman in the parking lot even though he never intended for her to fall to the ground and bust her head open...the community comes after HIM with torches and pitchforks...and so does the law....)

    This was a miscarriage of justice of epic proportions. People should be up in arms and demanding that such a thing never be allowed to happen again. Instead what do we see? Prosecutors choosing not to go after the *****, and after most people get over the shock of how absurd the situation is, they won't do/say much. Certainly we cannot count on most women to judge and condemn their own even when it is as vile as this, they are too busy deflecting away from the issue or benefiting from the injustice laden system to give a damn about the damage it is doing to men. So that puts the onus on us men to right the wrongs done to us men, and to be preemptive about it and fix the system BEFORE it happens to us personally (that is key, because once you are stuck turning in the gears of the machine it is too late for you, you will be too broken to fight). But if we won't rally behind righting the obvious wrongs when it is of Brian Banks magnitude, we won't rally behind righting the sneaky, festering, insidious wrongs that kill us slow either.

    The courts go harder on the man and softer on the women, but society does this too. The mindsets and expectations of people in general are in alignment with what is happening out here concerning the gender bias bullshit. YET the rhetoric constantly peddled to us ad nauseum is that

    women are equal to men,
    women can do anything a man can do, etc.

    Well if that is true then they can take their equal share of medicine and their just portion of punishment when they do wrong just like a man would be expected to do. They can put in work and pay their dues just like a man does. But for some reason this doesn't translate into many aspects of actual on-the-books law, nor does it seem to translate into a better understanding of things from the perspective of the judge who is supposed to interpret the law, nor does it translate into society's general expectations towards women.

    If she's so strong and independent and EQUAL to me then she can take care of herself she doesn't need my money; shouldn't even want it. But the court is gonna give it to her anyway, because on the books and behind the bench the court still behaves as if women need to be provided for simply because they are female, not because they earned anything. This kind of double talk from the courts AND society is sickening.

    The core assumptions that lend themselves to men getting the shaft need to be dealt with. Starting with the commonly made and naive assumption that women would never lie about something serious as rape, or as serious as their feelings about the man they are involved with, or as serious as their past or present sexual history and conduct. These days I put nothing past them....

    Men are going to have to bring the hammer down and shatter their own misconceptions and disbelief about women's presumed innocence and sincerity. The change starts from there. Because as long as most men believe they should give a woman automatic benefit of the doubt, or any benefits at all, and get nothing in return...those men are vulnerable to being played for everything they are worth (they let it all ride), and the house/dealer is in on it. Some chips you can't win back, so men are going to have to know when it's time to walk away from the table until they get better treatment from women and the government that writes and enforces the laws.

    After all, who will put pressure on the system to rule fairly and justly if it is not the people who still care about justice?

    When the values of the people are broken there is nothing to put the system in check to fix it's inequities and imbalances. And it all continues to spiral downwards. That is what we are in, a tailspin of WTF. I believe it can be fixed but not without a whole lot of work and urging from people who still care about what's right and fair. Those other motha****as who only care about their own profit and power have run the show for too long. And the people in general have either endured and put up with or enabled and let the shit be what it is....for far too long. It's getting close to the point of no return though. Also, whatever we hear about on the news, whatever IS reported in the media, we got to keep in mind there's lots we don't and won't hear about.

    We do know the divorce rate in this country is 50%, and out of the 50% of marriages that DO stay together, how many of them are healthy and happy? How many are sticking together for superficial reasons or out of convenience or cause "it's cheaper to keep her"? That is, how many marriages are actually working? We may never know the answer to that but we do know it's pretty bad out here and it's really a risky venture for the average man to undertake, even if he does love his woman with all his heart and have faith that things will work out. That has nothing to do with whether his wife will ankle out though.

    In closing,

    Problem: Society's expectations of men are lopsided and ****ed up even given current LEGAL and MORAL understanding of things (women's rights movement, notions of equality, etc.) and the ongoing draconian legal system concerning divorce/alimony/child support/etc. is a reflection of this.

    Solution: We got to promote fair expectations, i.e. having equal rights means having equal responsibility/liability/accountability i.e. no pussy passes should ever be given, and simply don't seriously deal with any women who don't agree with that stance. When enough people see it the same way they will put more pressure on the system to change in a manner that doesn't **** people over in these matters. Unfortunately this will take time and consistency but I believe we can make progress there if we keep at it. Every movement had to start somewhere.

    It will never be like it was in the 1940's-50's again. The most we can hope for is that a sense of what's fair and just for people is maintaned in the courts and in society at large. Women can work, get their education, own businesses, be the boss, run for and hold public office, impact policy, etc. So this means they should not expect that the man pay their way all thru the marriage and then sit there trying to get "half" in the divorce. She didn't put in half so she shouldn't be able to get out half. Just follow the money and you can see who is embezzling from the marriage. This mess can be challenged on that basis. Since they want to run marriage like a business in divorce court, they should abide by clear and previously stated business principles and clear terms from the get go (no fine print bullshit). Meaning everyone before they get married should get a "terms of service" document that they take to a lawyer so that they understand what they are getting into legally. You shouldn't be able to just go get married on love and faith alone, then wind up bamboozled when you find out the hard way what ****ed-in-the-ass terms you just signed on for. That's a scam.

    When women want to talk about their husband owing them for what they did during the marriage, men can counter with the fact that hey put a roof over the woman's head and clothed and fed her and made numerous provisions for her so she could be safe and protected and comfortable, etc. That value doesn't just evaporate into nothing just because the woman feels entitled to it. And the court should consider the man's considerable contribution to the marriage counts for something and not sit there acting like the woman should be able to double charge her husband for whatever services she did render.


    And so forth.

    Edit: LOL my bad this post wound up longer than I originally intended.

    Deathslayer

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    Blackknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by womanhater View Post
    If there was a smart government anywhere on Earth, they'd proclaim themselves an "alimony and child support haven" and refuse to extradite any male from any where who resided there.

    Said nation would be absolutely awash in talent from the four corners of the world.
    And would be bombed to hell by the USA for being sexist or something.

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    Gromnir's Avatar
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    Naw, just make sure the country isn't founded somewhere that has oil.

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    hasmat's Avatar
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    I'm doing some work for a guy who is a retired prison guard. He worked in the biggest prison in my state. He said that 90% of the guys in prison were there for drugs or unpaid child support. What a ****ing waste of life and taxpayer money.

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    The 50% thing is a sham. It simply compares the number of marriages still intact to those that have ended in divorce. That means that a marriage one day old counts in the "success" column. That is simply absurd and shows no grasp of mathematics.
    The reality is too scary to be published and simply not understood by the masses anyway. Very few people understand normal gaussian distribution so even if you quote a relevant figure like "mean duration" it means nothing to them. If the mean is 7 years that means that you have a 50% chance of making it to 7 years. Quite a different thing to 50% failure, huh?
    The truth is way, way worse than this bullshit "50% end in divorce" nonsense. Success is "'til death" not 7 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hasmat View Post
    I'm doing some work for a guy who is a retired prison guard. He worked in the biggest prison in my state. He said that 90% of the guys in prison were there for drugs or unpaid child support. What a ****ing waste of life and taxpayer money.
    Yet a woman can kill her own kid/husband and get off like it's nothing.

    Don't forget those women who sleep with underage guys and get no penalty.

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    I know I have a child out of wedlock, but after reading this I'm glad I didn't marry or co-habitate with the mother, and happier still that she has married. I wriggled off a nasty big hook.


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