Elam vs Frost

[Frederick326]

Have you guys been following the Elam vs Frost debate over at A Voice For Men?

Here are the posts in order
Paul Elam does not have the answers you’re looking for (debate) | A Voice for Men
Elam vs Frost: Texas Death Match – Round 1 | A Voice for Men
Elam vs Frost: Round 2 – Frost Speaks | A Voice for Men
Elam vs Frost: Round 3 | A Voice for Men
Elam vs Frost: Round 4 | A Voice for Men

Frankly, while I think I follow their individual points, I can't figure out just what the debate is supposed to be about. Seems to me it boils down to

Elam (zeta male): "Chasing pussy is more trouble than its worth!"
Frost (PUA): "No, it isn't!"

So it mostly works out as both of them calling each other a fool or other slurs. I'm pretty disgusted by it. And I usually like Elam. Am I missing something?

[Spoon]

I don't really see the point. The only overlap between the Game community and MRAs is within the values of individuals.

Being a PUA is about getting laid. Being a MRA is about actually changing things or at least making a stand. One group is focused on fucking women while the other is an activist group. The aims of the two groups are completely different.

I don't have a problem with guys learning stuff to get laid but it has little to do with the legal and cultural realities we deal with.

[Tha Big Daddy C-Master]

Right and living a life chasing after sex is really just a life where something is in control of you. Have sex, but don't let it run you.

[fairi5fair]

I'm so bored with the PUA versus MRA debate that I could spit. It's as easy as 'To thine own self be true' imho. I'm not about to become dogmatic about MGTOW; seems like a contradiction to me. Men need to stick together these days. Pussy has divided us enough. To each their own.

[Tha Big Daddy C-Master]

True. Men can go their own way and definitely have sex. There's a difference between that and letting it "control" you though, (like a drug). Also jumping through hoops or ego boosting to get laid is counterproductive. If you don't do those things, that's great.

[Calloway]

I'm so bored with the PUA versus MRA debate that I could spit.

Abso-feckin-lutely!

I listened to the AVoiceForMen radio podcast last night and was so disappointed. As a MGTOW, I already feel pretty disconnected from most of the blue-pill world as it is. At least most of the PUA's recognize that something isn't right. That's enough for me to feel like those guys, while they don't have the same end-goal as me, at least aren't fumbling around in the dark wondering what happened. Basically, I never felt like the PUA guys are "the enemy". And it seemed like Paul has been really pushing for that. Very disappointing.

[Spoon]

I think it's important to understand that MGTOW, MRA and PUA aren't mutally exclusive or inclusive. You can be all three at once or just one. The fact that most guys who fit in one category usually fit into one of the others doesn't really mean that the three things are significantly related.

You can be a MGTOW ghost and not be an MRA, like I am. There are PUAs that are non-MGTOW pussy beggars and PUAs that are MGTOW.

[Tha Big Daddy C-Master]

That's my point. Now if a guy is truly "alpha" or desirable (attractive, successful, etc.) he won't have to do much of that and women will approach him. Ones who are beta trying to be "alpha" use advanced pussybegging to get laid. It's more "smooth" but really it is catering to a woman's ego.

Just ignore them and let them approach you when they get upset that you aren't worshiping the ground they are walking on. That way you get laid, without stroking her ego, let her come to you.

[ubermensch]

I thought MGTOW was about ... Men Going Their Own Way ... or am I missing something?

Be fucked if I stick to some stupid rule book - for anything.

[TheBlueTurtle]

Abso-feckin-lutely!

I listened to the AVoiceForMen radio podcast last night and was so disappointed. As a MGTOW, I already feel pretty disconnected from most of the blue-pill world as it is. At least most of the PUA's recognize that something isn't right. That's enough for me to feel like those guys, while they don't have the same end-goal as me, at least aren't fumbling around in the dark wondering what happened. Basically, I never felt like the PUA guys are "the enemy". And it seemed like Paul has been really pushing for that. Very disappointing.

I like following the MRM. I also like listening to A Voice for Men. But I don't think any activism short of terrorism can change things. I've already given up and resolved to expatriate when possible. I give sites like AVfM credit for trying to effect change, and not taking the misandry of this culture laying down, though. I'm not sure what Paul's plan is, but it is probably way to political and defined for my tastes. This whole debate about what is an MRA is very tiresome. People like this have a specific criteria, and that excludes a lot of people who would otherwise be a great asset. No one wants to have to fill a mold to participate, be recognized, or be a part of something. Even if such a movement became mainstream, a spokesman would be chosen, like Paul. And he might get elected to office as some public official. But, in time, despite his original ideals, his campaign would change; become corrupt. This is the path of all that is originally righteous.

[womanhater]

In my opinion, PUAs are bad for the movement in that they entitle the twats even more by giving them what they want. PUAs are good for the movement in that in order to be a successful PUA, you first have to see the harsh difference between what the twats say and what they do. This is for many men the first glimmer into the fucktard thinking and behavior of modern twats, and PUA is often enough the first step to MGTOW and ghosting.

On a side note, I for one greatly appreciate Nacho for not letting this forum become a PUA haven and for his judicious use of the banhammer when there have been PUA related issues in the past.

[BeijaFlor]

I for one greatly appreciate Nacho for not letting this forum become a PUA haven and for his judicious use of the banhammer when there have been PUA related issues in the past.

And I enthusiastically second that "vote of appreciation".

One of Paul's major gripes is the situation of PUAs coming aboard AVFM and pushing their PUA attitudes on his board, combined with a heavy dose of "if you don't chase 'tang my way you're all losers." Then stomping on any men's-rights posting on their sites, with their own brand of scorn and shame. You know, "I want your space but you can't have my space."

Well, there's plenty of PUA space out there. MGTOW Forums is NOT about "how to chase women," it's about "how and WHY to ESCAPE the toxic effects of women." AVFM is about "combating, neutralizing and TURNING BACK the toxic effects of women."

Paul VS Frost is like two legs of an equilateral triangle arguing about which is longest.

[Nacho Vidal]

Cheers guys, I think most of us agree that they are plenty of other places for the PUA chit chat, MGTOW isn't really the place for PUA talk.

[Nacho Vidal]

Actually, believe it or not, but I used to be quite a regular on the So Suave forums...probably between 2000 and 2002! I used to go on there and give my advice to those guys who were not so good at pulling the birds! My biggest claim to fame was to start one of the most viewed and 'replied to' thread during that period, it was titled 'Wanking!'

[Truyardy]

The only time I have a problem with PUA's is when they come to MRA boards and take shots at us for not being pussy chasers.

[I Am Jack's Agent of Kaos]

It doesn't really matter, the only winners of this debate are the feminist dogs. This division in the ranks of men isn't going to help us any, we either stand together or we fall apart.

[Vic Ferrari]

PUA? uh...Pick Up A...Disease? Disaster? Dinosaur?

[BeijaFlor]

PUA? One of the guys on AVfM defined it as "Pussy Uber Alles".