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Thread: MGTOW Make More Sense Than MRAs

  1. #1
    Matt Foley's Avatar
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    MGTOW Make More Sense Than MRAs

    Nice little article on Return of Kings, which is RooshV's attempt to branch out beyond Game. Yeah, he's still a PUA. But there are some good articles on this site.

    MGTOW Make More Sense Than MRA’s

    There has been a gradual awakening among men. Over the last decade, the ease of access to information that would typically be excluded from mainstream media has allowed fringe ideas to flourish. The mens rights movement in particular has come along in leaps and bounds, much of it initially spurred on by average guys who were just looking to get laid at first. Evidence has been gradually compiled and built up to the point where rational men have begun to realize that while they need to improve themselves and offer more, there is indeed a real underlying problem with western society and western women. There is no need to go into any great detail on how destructive feminism has been to men, women, the family or society as whole (I would only be preaching to the converted here) However, men as a whole are gradually starting to realize that they are getting a pretty raw deal.

    The Mens Rights Activists have gained some traction of late and they have their hearts in the right place. I just fear that it’s a complete waste of time trying to campaign for any meaningful change. Our systems of education and educational institutions, throughout the Western world, are so liberally biased that they have become nothing short of indoctrination camps, churning out armies of students and gullible chodes who take up employment in media, government, civil service, education, and all manner of positions where their beliefs dictate their activities and actions.

    Feminism’s foundations are based in egalitarianism, which means that for MRA’s to find any sort of mainstream recognition they are going to have to prove that discrimination against men is not justified, if you can even force them to concede that there is widespread discrimination in the first place. MRA’s, much like any other politically incorrect movement, simply do not control modern language or have any influence on it. Which means for every valid argument made, the counter argument will be accusations of bigotry, paranoia and bitterness. There is no rational debate to ever be had, only the inevitable outcome where you will be shamed into silence regardless of how sound an argument you make. It has become an exercise in futility, because movements based on egalitarian principles are often irrational movements based on an irrational premise held together by irrational arguments, yet they are regarded as politically correct and and infallible regardless.

    Simply put, you cannot beat cultural Marxists at their own game when they constantly redefine the rules at their whim, and you cannot discredit feminism as a movement when its foundations are rooted in extreme egalitarian principle either. Feminism is one cog in a huge machine and you are not fighting feminism alone, you are fighting a particularly irrational pattern of thought that pervades most egalitarian principles, of which feminism is one just aspect. All the logical arguments, backed up with all the empirical evidence in the world is simply never going to challenge an entire ideology that is based on nothing more than good feelings and wishful thinking.

    The best form of protest from men is rather simple, and it can be summed up best as simple indifference. Men built the world. They built the systems that run the world. They developed the philosophies those systems are built from. They invent the tools that help them build those systems. Everything from basic modern conveniences to necessities like food and water are only made available because somewhere a man is getting shit done or because he solved a problem that needed fixing. This is a mans world because we built it. Every brick and every nail.

    There is a reason why the Googles of the world are not being started by women or why the cure for cancer probably wont come from a woman either. There are reasons why men need to dig the ditches and pour the concrete. It’s because at the end of the day there is a natural order of things that no amount of social engineering is ever going to change. Attempts to do so will only result in eventual systemic collapse, which is why this current social experiment is on borrowed time. Feminists and modern-day politicians buying votes are eventually going to run out of other people’s money, and when they do there is simply not going to be a way to fund the numerous programs required that allow women to compete with men or survive without them. Their ideology was never based on reality and has been built on the foundations of prosperity that were laid by men in the first place.

    Which is why the “Men Going Their Own Way” movement that has sprung up may indeed be the best form of protest we have, along with being the most realistic. I was skeptical at first and thought it extreme, but upon reflection over the years I have come to realize that there is no better form of peaceful protest than our indifference. As a philosophy in itself, its entire purpose is one of protest through inaction. The bottom line is that men are simply being taken for granted now, and it’s reached the point where men are really faced with few options.

    They can embrace the status quo, which marginalises them to the detriment of society. They can protest, which leads to substantial conflict as progressives reject the emergence of what they would classify as a movement based on hatred and bigotry. Or they can simply eject, which essentially leaves women and society to fend for itself without men breaking their backs for the cause selflessly. All options lead to systemic collapse anyway, the last option though is the least painful for men and one that teaches everyone a damn good lesson along the way.

    If women are leaving the kitchen and the family, then men need to leave the building and the city. You can do this by simply living for yourself and acting no differently to the army of self-absorbed, entitled, narcissistic *****es that are being produced in droves. Live the carefree, selfish life women lead instead. Make everything in your life about you and your feelings, and what suits you as an individual, rather than your community. You have no obligation to society other than living within the law, and you are free to move to a place where the laws are more suitable for you if you wish.

    Women and society have taken men for granted for too long, and the selfless actions of men are not appreciated as much as they are outright demanded now.

    **** that, you don’t owe anyone shit. Your loyalty should lie with your family and with your friends who return your loyalty, but that is as far as it should go. Do what you want and put yourself first now. Your acts of selflessness are no longer appreciated, they are resented and therefore wasted. If you want to play video games everyday or spend your free time fixing cars, do it without shame. If you want to notch up 200 club ****s or spend your spare time hunting, do it without shame. If you want to marry and have kids, do it because its what you want, not because you feel society or anyone else expects it of you, and do it on your god damned terms or not at all.

    This has begun already, even if it does not seem like a conscious decision many men have made. Underneath the surface, there is massive undercurrent of inaction and we are seeing it in the gradual decline of the west as a whole. Men are checking out. Men are rejecting marriage or putting it off and marriage rates are in decline. We are seeing the emergence of shaming language like “Peter Pan Syndrome” or the media demanding that men “Man Up,” which just shows how more and more men are going their own way, and they are scared shitless. We will probably see things like bachelor taxes in our lifetime as demographics change to the point where tax revenue declines, and expect political pressure to be heaped on men as everyone gets more hysterical.

    Pump them and dump them boys, let God sort them out.
    Last edited by Matt Foley; 02-21-2013 at 06:28 PM.

  2. #2
    TheDisgruntledGentleman's Avatar
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    Good find. I have one point though;

    "We will probably see things like bachelor taxes in our lifetime"
    There already is a bachelor tax in the US. I pay more Federal taxes now than when I was married...

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    Blackknight's Avatar
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    I saw MRA before coming here. I still support MRA and read articles on MRA websites.

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    Matt Foley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDisgruntledGentleman View Post
    There already is a bachelor tax in the US. I pay more Federal taxes now than when I was married...
    Yes! I discovered this myself while doing my taxes this year (I was married during the past 4 years).

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    I'm not an MRA. Never have been, most likely won't ever be one.

    While I see where they are coming from, we have two separate goals in life. I choose to Go My Own Way/Ghost and fly as far under the radar as possible while they consider themselves activists.

    I will admit that my only experience with MRAs is from their reddit page (I'm sure there are a few MRAs here, I just don't know who you are!) and from what I've seen, MGTOWs and MRAs are completely different. One small example of that would be the numerous times I have seen someone say "don't get married" and have MRAs tripping over themselves to criticize him and ring the NAWALT alarm bell.

    Whenever the lone comment telling someone to look into MGTOW/Ghosting appears, it is downvoted into oblivion. (Again, this is on reddit's MRA page; I've never bothered to look up any other MRA page or site.)

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    Wow great article, can't believe it came from the PUA camp. One of the best I've seen. Thanks for posting. The Mens rights movement, oh wait I'm sorry i mean the mens human rights movement, is quickly disintegrating. They are spinning their wheels, what have they accomplished ever? Nothing I can think of. It's just getting more and more diluted and useless as time goes on. MGTOW actually has a legitimate measurable effect on the economy and the society we live in, simply by withdrawing the consent of the victim and saying NO MORE.
    Last edited by The Invisible Man; 02-21-2013 at 09:14 PM.

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    bubbagumpshrimp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDisgruntledGentleman View Post
    Good find. I have one point though;



    There already is a bachelor tax in the US. I pay more Federal taxes now than when I was married...
    Yup. I'm going to kick the next person in the junk that says there's a "marriage penalty" (in terms of taxes).

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    Cerebrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDisgruntledGentleman View Post
    Good find. I have one point though;



    There already is a bachelor tax in the US. I pay more Federal taxes now than when I was married...
    I believe this is different. The tax structure has always bee separate for single vs married people. The premise of the bachelor tax would most likely be a new levied tax in addition to the taxes you already pay for being single.

  9. #9
    TheDisgruntledGentleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrus View Post
    I believe this is different. The tax structure has always bee separate for single vs married people. The premise of the bachelor tax would most likely be a new levied tax in addition to the taxes you already pay for being single.
    Semantics. You can call it what you want, but it's just raising an existing tax. Take Social Security for example. I just lump that in with my Federal taxes because the chance I will get anything out of that fund is practically zero...

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    AldenHamil's Avatar
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    Great article. The key differences between MRA and MGTOW:

    A. MRA doesn't accomplish anything. Any meaningful change within the current framework is impossible.
    B. MGTOW accomplishes. Each man who bows out of the system in part or in whole, is one less serf feeding into it.

    C. To be an MRA, you have to study the issues, get involved with a cause, and rely on the collective for progress.
    D. To be a MGTOW, you don't actually have to do anything. It's so fluid, you don't even have to know that MGTOW exists.

    E. MRA is an organized, artificial movement. It can be targeted for attack at any given moment.
    F. MGTOW is an organic, individual, and logical reaction to the reality of our era. There is nothing you can easily target.

    G. MRA is fairly restricted in scope and scale. The internet is it, basically.
    H. MGTOW exists wherever men are getting the shit end of the stick. MGTOW, Herbivores, etc. Many developed societies, even outside the West, are facing a generation of young men who are opting out. Their own movements may not have a name or an internet forum, but they are happening nonetheless, and the underlying ideology is the same.

    I. MRA ultimately seeks to reconcile with women and the government. Therefore, their success depends entirely on.. women and the government, which is an expensive and time-consuming endeavour.
    J. MGTOW seeks no reconciliation. There are no battles to fight. There are no authority figures to plead with. There are no court cases to be won. There are no material losses. The moment you decide to GYOW, in earnest, you win.

  11. #11
    7 Deadly Sins's Avatar
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    We'll probably end up paying double what we do now as far as bachelor tax goes. Great article by Roosh. I like that he has evolved into a man of substance instead of talking about alpha's and hb10s.

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    TheDisgruntledGentleman's Avatar
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    I also think that the way males deals with things and the way females deal with problems are inherently different.

    For example, feminism works for females because they are herd creatures so it's easy to get them together around a banner of whatever issue they currently feels needs addressing

    Males on the other hand are not herd orientated thus the only way to counteract bullshit is by simply not playing the game. If you don't play, you can't lose. And given that males are inherently more secure than women, they don't give a flying **** about losing a game they have no interest in.

    You see, the MRM is just the anti-Feminist movement so it makes sense that women want to join it because it's currently the trendiest thing to be into. Next week it'll be saving the badgers or something equally as puerile...

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    **** that, you don’t owe anyone shit. Your loyalty should lie with your family and with your friends who return your loyalty, but that is as far as it should go. Do what you want and put yourself first now. Your acts of selflessness are no longer appreciated, they are resented and therefore wasted. If you want to play video games everyday or spend your free time fixing cars, do it without shame.
    Live the carefree, selfish life women lead instead. Make everything in your life about you and your feelings, and what suits you as an individual, rather than your community. You have no obligation to society other than living within the law, and you are free to move to a place where the laws are more suitable for you if you wish.
    People tend to forget that we already pay what we 'owe to society'. They're called taxes. That's where our obligation ends. It's already institutionalized, so we don't have to worry about it; It's forced upon us.
    Not only that, but we single men actually pay a penalty for being single in the form of higher taxes.
    So, go ahead and do what the **** you want, guilt-free; We paid for it.
    Last edited by HappilySingle; 02-21-2013 at 11:02 PM.

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    Blackknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AldenHamil View Post
    Great article. The key differences between MRA and MGTOW:

    A. MRA doesn't accomplish anything. Any meaningful change within the current framework is impossible.
    B. MGTOW accomplishes. Each man who bows out of the system in part or in whole, is one less serf feeding into it.

    C. To be an MRA, you have to study the issues, get involved with a cause, and rely on the collective for progress.
    D. To be a MGTOW, you don't actually have to do anything. It's so fluid, you don't even have to know that MGTOW exists.

    E. MRA is an organized, artificial movement. It can be targeted for attack at any given moment.
    F. MGTOW is an organic, individual, and logical reaction to the reality of our era. There is nothing you can easily target.

    G. MRA is fairly restricted in scope and scale. The internet is it, basically.
    H. MGTOW exists wherever men are getting the shit end of the stick. MGTOW, Herbivores, etc. Many developed societies, even outside the West, are facing a generation of young men who are opting out. Their own movements may not have a name or an internet forum, but they are happening nonetheless, and the underlying ideology is the same.

    I. MRA ultimately seeks to reconcile with women and the government. Therefore, their success depends entirely on.. women and the government, which is an expensive and time-consuming endeavour.
    J. MGTOW seeks no reconciliation. There are no battles to fight. There are no authority figures to plead with. There are no court cases to be won. There are no material losses. The moment you decide to GYOW, in earnest, you win.
    MGTOW is better but I still sympathize with MRA. I prefer ghosting, but I do not look down upon activists.

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    MGTOW Make More Sense Than MRAs
    Yes. Yes we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDisgruntledGentleman View Post
    There already is a bachelor tax in the US. I pay more Federal taxes now than when I was married...
    This.

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    I'm a lot more in favor of MGTOW because, quite frankly, I don't think MRA is a battle worth fighting. As someone else pointed out, they want to reconcile with ****s and .gov, so they're dependent on ****s and .gov.

    **** that.

    The only way they're going to make progress is to turn the entire thing into an ACTUAL fight. ****ing Iraqi insurgent style. Think they've got the stones for that? Me either.

    MGTOW, on the other hand, is more like an extreme form of Ghandi and non-violent protest. Do what you want, **** off society, let the entire thing burn or collapse under its own rotten weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackknight View Post
    I saw MRA before coming here. I still support MRA and read articles on MRA websites.
    I like MRA because it adds a "thorn in the side" aspect. Not only are they busy rounding up all the prison escapees, they have the MRAs following them around arguing with them. It's awesome.

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    GT66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDisgruntledGentleman View Post
    Semantics. You can call it what you want, but it's just raising an existing tax. Take Social Security for example. I just lump that in with my Federal taxes because the chance I will get anything out of that fund is practically zero...
    You absolutely should not think of it that way. SS is YOUR retirement fund and at the very least, their screwing you out of your money should beget them an eternal grudge and constant reminders of their thievery. And yeah, they will be finding a way to cheat us out of our due soon.

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    Great article by Roosh. Even though his material falls under the PUA camp, PUAs and MGTOWs share the same ideas except one group puts those ideas into practice while the other safeguards them and lives on its own terms. They're both interdisciplinary.

    There is also another appealing factor for MGTOW. It is a youthful philosophy and idea that can be followed or adhered to by any male of any age. There are older MGTOWS who are ready to teach the younger ones about ghosting and how to avoid dealing with women or getting trapped by them so there is a tradition that gets passed down from one generation to the next, which reinforces this community. This site isn't just a place where men come to make threads and vent about women while making the mistake of treating them like princesses in reality. There are core ideas centered around this philosophy that everyone knows represents as close a truth to Western culture as possible. As Roosh stated, the data and statistics are on our side by showing us the declining birth rates, the bias inherent within the courts, and so on. If there was nothing to verify our observations then MGTOW would be far less appealing or sensible to most men. MGTOW is the only real way to go about understanding the society and culture we find ourselves in here in the West. In my opinion, you will find more people like Roosh who will open up to MGTOW as time moves on for two reasons: 1) It makes sense because it's the best way for men to avoid the grinder, 2) It seems like it is becoming a default position to take even without seeing more men join communities like this one. As Roosh said, more men will do what's best for themselves without ever hearing of MGTOW in the first place. No one can change this path with any piece of legislation lest they physically force us to mate with women (by mating I mean getting married and having offspring, not just sex, in order to continue to support the columns of this decaying society). Pumping and dumping is a far better way to go as the ruined lives of countless men are a testament to avoiding the life script.

    MRA is social justice activism that has all the appeal of feminism in the end really. Even if you put up posters, try to affect influence at the legislative level, and free individuals from unjust courts as many have done, there is still an impenetrable layer of politics and social norms that is protected by victimology. Not only is it protected by victimology, but it is upheld by the very technology we take for granted in society. While it makes our lives easier, it also affords women the entitlement and privilege they powerfully wield. If you want to really make change, you'd have to go back to a time where women were forced to be dependent on men for their manual labour and ability to create or innovate, which cannot happen. In my opinion, technology is one of the key aspects of all of this and that is why you'd never see true equality for men in society. This technological aspect is also coupled with our innate biological tendencies to white knight or supplicate women's desires, which makes an entire society bend to the will of females. In this modern age, all of these factors contribute to this high level of influence and power women yield. It's hypergamy and Briffault's law on steroids as we are all aware.

    MRA is a "philosophy" that is more akin to the way things work in a business or company because it deals with non-profit activism and organizations. They have a system that is predicated on tenure and seniority where the older you are the more established position you are awarded. It willfully throws away the energy of young men who can contribute to the cause, but most young men would later know that this is something for the 40 and 50 year old men and women as it doesn't lead anywhere. All it does is form a relatively cohesive social network where people form bonds without chasing their goals as vigorously as they should if they want to change anything. Most ambitious young men want to see outcomes that reveal a shifting landscape - a result of their own "work", which is accomplished by ghosting. The beauty of ghosting is that you don't have to think of it as something you are doing because you want to collapse society, but it is just a side effect. Ghosting is more of a symptom of a society that treats men like dirt and this way of life is what places a man's own interests above anything else. You are doing it because it is what makes you enjoy every bit of life you have left to live and not because you want to "teach" society a lesson.
    Last edited by RedNova; 02-22-2013 at 08:42 AM.

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